that's how fine grained it get in new york new york city on the subway pushing welfare programs. it informs and pushes them. >> but getting back to the poverty program and they're pushing food stamps and welfare programs and they have a tendency to keep poor people poor. once you are on the dole it is hard tore get off. >> it is. incentives are wrong. they encourage people to stay on it. it is it a growth crisis. economic growth is easy and if we get the policies right, a lot of these people get off of it and i agree with victoria that we have a welfare industrial complex. and in order to keep these people on food stamps, we got to -- >> and creating a sense of depeppedency from fdr and bill clinton and senators . this is not just republicans and conservatives. >> that is it a valid. if you want to reform welfare to resolve the problems that you are raising. they are valid problems . we will not mix it up by condemning people who need help right now because times are bad. people need to feed their families. >> but victoria. are we advocating policiless that keep poor people poor?